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Post by BrewCrewGuru on May 20, 2022 8:12:07 GMT -5
Here is the latest email from "Gordon."
Sean,
I am sorry to say that I am not able to provide a specific date at this time but due to the delay it is looking like the release of the projections database has been pushed to the end of May this year.
Gordon
Diamond Mind Support Team
So we got that to look forward to. Sorry y'all. Apparently, unless you know witchcraft or something, you can't just will something into existence. I'll try to be better next year.
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Post by raysgm on May 20, 2022 13:55:17 GMT -5
Here is the latest email from "Gordon." Sean, I am sorry to say that I am not able to provide a specific date at this time but due to the delay it is looking like the release of the projections database has been pushed to the end of May this year. Gordon Diamond Mind Support Team So we got that to look forward to. Sorry y'all. Apparently, unless you know witchcraft or something, you can't just will something into existence. I'll try to be better next year. Thanks for checking in on this. Only another week of waiting it sounds like |
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Post by Nationals on May 20, 2022 13:57:19 GMT -5
Gordon sucks.
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Post by Cubbies on May 22, 2022 13:08:20 GMT -5
Every Gordon I've ever met sucked. |
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Post by Pirates GM on May 22, 2022 20:22:08 GMT -5
There is no way that Diamond Mind can stay viable in this day and age with business practices like this.
It's almost like Dan's pre-2021 ZiPS work ethic has been imparted to the entire company. They're going to go belly up.
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Post by BrewCrewGuru on May 23, 2022 11:40:14 GMT -5
There is no way that Diamond Mind can stay viable in this day and age with business practices like this. It's almost like Dan's pre-2021 ZiPS work ethic has been imparted to the entire company. They're going to go belly up. Their business model is not predicated on the projection disks anymore. Since Imagine Sports purchased them, they spend way more time tuning and refining their season replays and historical databases. Honestly, if a developer were to write something that could convert Dan's ZiPS results into a basic disk database, it would be easier for the community at-large to complete the database. It's something I've looked into in the past, but is beyond my skill set. It's a project I'll explore again after I update NSBL league tools. Once more leagues have been using OOTP, we may need to explore that option. I personally didn't love the program, but they always have the product ready on time. |
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Post by BrewCrewGuru on May 25, 2022 17:11:34 GMT -5
Delayed until June.
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Post by raysgm on May 25, 2022 21:24:34 GMT -5
When (and if) the disk is ever released, do we want to sim 2 weeks at a time? |
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Post by LA Angels GM on May 25, 2022 21:41:45 GMT -5
I don't like two weeks at a time. Too much can happen in those two weeks that may need to be changed, like injuries.
I'm for doing two a week, though I know that creates a huge commitment from whoever is running the sim.
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Post by BrewCrewGuru on May 26, 2022 6:02:40 GMT -5
I don't like two weeks at a time. Too much can happen in those two weeks that may need to be changed, like injuries. I'm for doing two a week, though I know that creates a huge commitment from whoever is running the sim. I'm going to let Joe do whatever he feels is best for the league and for his time. |
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Post by Cubbies on May 26, 2022 7:52:30 GMT -5
I don't like two weeks at a time. Too much can happen in those two weeks that may need to be changed, like injuries. I'm for doing two a week, though I know that creates a huge commitment from whoever is running the sim. I'm going to let Joe do whatever he feels is best for the league and for his time. Retire a second time? By the time we're ready to sim, we're going to be two months behind schedule. That's more than ever before. That means we won't finish the season until probably... Thanksgiving? Idk. Maybe we run four weeks of Saturdays and Wednesdays and go from there to see if we want to catch all the way up or see if that's good enough? We're at least used to running a month or so behind schedule. |
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Post by BrewCrewGuru on May 26, 2022 8:07:48 GMT -5
As I've always stated, running concurrently with the real season is completely unnecessary. If we just stop brute forcing the timing of the season, these types of waiting periods wouldn't be as long or as frequent. At least that how it feels in my brain.
Honestly, make an argument for why we MUST run our season in-step with real life? Because I don't think anyone has anything other than "I want to" and "It's cool" or some other such horsehockey.
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Post by Elephanti! on May 26, 2022 8:51:41 GMT -5
There is no way that Diamond Mind can stay viable in this day and age with business practices like this. It's almost like Dan's pre-2021 ZiPS work ethic has been imparted to the entire company. They're going to go belly up. Their business model is not predicated on the projection disks anymore. Since Imagine Sports purchased them, they spend way more time tuning and refining their season replays and historical databases. Honestly, if a developer were to write something that could convert Dan's ZiPS results into a basic disk database, it would be easier for the community at-large to complete the database. It's something I've looked into in the past, but is beyond my skill set. It's a project I'll explore again after I update NSBL league tools. Once more leagues have been using OOTP, we may need to explore that option. I personally didn't love the program, but they always have the product ready on time. My other league switched to OOTP last year. I like it more than DMB overall, but I think they do more massaging of the projections to fit what they want to happen with rosters and such (I don't really know the intricacies of it because I'm not as invested as I would have been 10 years ago). It would also mean that everyone here would have to buy the game every year. |
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Post by DodgersGM on May 26, 2022 9:28:33 GMT -5
I think it's come time to start thinking about another simulation as an option for next year. I'm sure there would be growing pains with a new simulation, but the projection disk gets released later and later every year. It hasn't been high on DMB's priority list for a while and every year it seems to be less of a priority. Personally, I am with Sean as to when the season starts, it's irrelevant to me. If it starts 2 months late, even 3 months late at least we can plan the drafts and free agency accordingly. Eventually I think DMB just stops making the projection disk, and if they don't care enough about getting it out in a timely manner they're not going to announce in advance they're not making it. That forces us to make a change, more than likely when we're ill prepared to make it. I think it's time to move on after this year. Whether it's OOTP or another program I think it's necessary to exlpore the best fit. Personally I would rather have a switch planned out in advance than get caught in a situation where DMB doesn't put out the projection disk next year and we're scrambling to get a replacement. Using something that isn't as good as DMB is better than not being able to run a season at all.
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Post by Nationals on May 26, 2022 9:45:59 GMT -5
$40 a year per GM to switch to OOTP. Honestly, I wouldn't mind it.
This waiting period is getting old.
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Post by BrewCrewGuru on May 26, 2022 12:34:08 GMT -5
My biggest concern with OOTP is that every GM must purchase the program which means no free rides in NSBL. I'm ok with that, but I always want to keep the league free to use.
My 2nd concern is the logistics of setting up the season. When I tried to load our league rosters in 2020 and 2021, I couldn't find a tool at the time and the manual process is much more labor intensive than DMB which means I can't just get it done in a weekend. That was part of my statement regarding wanting more leagues to have used the software so that we can use their info to make our transition more seemless.
I have tasked some of the committee to research this while I work on the draft and free agency tools. We'll present some ideas as soon as we have some things fleshed out.
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Post by sanfran on May 26, 2022 13:01:31 GMT -5
We could always go back to allowing spreadsheet changes to lineups. Manual entry for the commish. Not ideal, but it's a bridge for long-time owners who don't want to purchase.
Also, we can investigate if annual purchase is required, or if they release current year rosters for last year's version. Possibly a user mod.
OOTP is always 50% off at the all-star break. $20. For those interested in taking a look.
Also, if you buy straight from their site, they used to give you 2 licenses. (Steam would only give 1). Not sure if this is still true. Possibly another way to spread the cost.
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Whitesox
AAA
I'm just here for the free kool-aid
Posts: 773
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Post by Whitesox on Jun 1, 2022 13:40:16 GMT -5
If anyone else in this league has any experience being in an online OOTP dynasty league we would love to hear input about your experience!
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Post by LA Angels GM on Jun 1, 2022 16:42:20 GMT -5
If anyone else in this league has any experience being in an online OOTP dynasty league we would love to hear input about your experience! Not sure if this is what you're looking for, but here's what someone posted in MLBSA: Okay, sorry this is so late, but I'll offer my 2 cents as a long time participant in BNSL with only a year of OOTP experience under my belt. Maybe some of the below can help clear things up: 1. The initial switch will take some time, but is doable. It would be mostly roster input I believe. BNSL's switch was made more difficult (in my opinion) for one major reason: OOTP's defensive metrics are slightly different than zips, and the way DMB rates players playing out of position compared to OOTP is also different. Some at BNSL wanted to try to minimize these differences which meant some software writing to help offset this (long story that I can/will get into the defense issues in more detail in a separate post) but there are very simple solutions to avoid this. 2. You can easily turn off ALL the "bells and whistles" (tickets sales, owner expectations, budgets etc.) so that the league would run more or less as it does now. 3. OOTP is super easy to set your lineups and pitching staffs, the user interface is like a video game. And you can set as little or as much game strategy as you want (shifts, hit and run, stealing, etc, etc.). But as someone mentioned above, you can also ask the AI to set your ideal lineups, pitching staff and strategies for you. 4. In BNSL, we have a main web page where we have links to the forum, GM Interface (not applicable for WLSB), discord channel (for those who like it) and the StatsPlus page, which is updated after sims and gives you all the same info as the links we use for DMB updates, plus a lot more in-depth info (if you want it). It is also visually far more enjoyable than DMB's. 5. For WLSB, we can still use everything we are doing know (spreadsheet, drafts, trades, FA) in the forum and just have roster management and lineups uploaded by the individual GMs. This aspect of having the individual GMs upload their own rosters I imagine will be a BIG plus for the EC guys running the league. 6. Then I would say, if, and only if and when everyone is comfortable with OOTP, we could potentially consider using more of the software's abilities. Definitely not necessary though. 7. In BNSL, I don't think we had anyone leave due to the switch, and I imagine the cost of getting OOTP would be offset by not getting DMB. If guys were really against paying for it, their lineups and staff could be entered by one of the EC and/or automated by the games AI (like we do now). It's basically the same advantages/disadvantages to buying the DMB projection disk. Also note that OOTP is a fun game on its own, and has an additional side game called Perfect Team which is like an online trading card to build a roster and compete with others type thing. So it offers more for your money than just sim league management software. Sorry , that was more like 2 dollars than 2 cents, but maybe the above will help clarify some issues for some. |
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Post by raysgm on Jun 1, 2022 23:37:20 GMT -5
If anyone else in this league has any experience being in an online OOTP dynasty league we would love to hear input about your experience! Not sure if this is what you're looking for, but here's what someone posted in MLBSA: Okay, sorry this is so late, but I'll offer my 2 cents as a long time participant in BNSL with only a year of OOTP experience under my belt. Maybe some of the below can help clear things up: 1. The initial switch will take some time, but is doable. It would be mostly roster input I believe. BNSL's switch was made more difficult (in my opinion) for one major reason: OOTP's defensive metrics are slightly different than zips, and the way DMB rates players playing out of position compared to OOTP is also different. Some at BNSL wanted to try to minimize these differences which meant some software writing to help offset this (long story that I can/will get into the defense issues in more detail in a separate post) but there are very simple solutions to avoid this. This is all very informative, thanks John! Would you mind sharing what the defense issues were that were alluded to here? |
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Post by LA Angels GM on Jun 2, 2022 5:12:34 GMT -5
This is all that was posted. I'll ask around.
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Post by LA Angels GM on Jun 2, 2022 12:23:46 GMT -5
Here's what I got. He also posted Frazier's player stats, but I'm on a phone so a little difficult. Give me a minute and I'll figure it how to post it here.
"You’ll see what a players C/INF/OF ratings are for range, arm, error, turn DPs, and C ability then you get a cumulative number grade based on the players experience at the position. You have to give a player time at a certain position to see his overall rating increase in OOTP. You’ll see Frazier has a 35 grade at 1B right now but if I gave him every start there, it would go up to a 70-75 based on his range, error, arm and turn DP. I’m pretty sure there’s nothing like that on DMB."
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Post by LA Angels GM on Jun 2, 2022 12:27:29 GMT -5
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Post by BrewCrewGuru on Jun 2, 2022 14:50:33 GMT -5
The biggest difference in the basic game of OOTP vs DMB is that the in-season progression. I believe most leagues have this feature turned off, but my only experience has been playing with 20 and 21 OOTP games. I didn't really explore all the options, but I would think we wouldn't want to have the computer determining position viability. We should be relying on the preset position rankings.
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Post by LA Angels GM on Jun 2, 2022 14:57:08 GMT -5
The biggest difference in the basic game of OOTP vs DMB is that the in-season progression. I believe most leagues have this feature turned off, but my only experience has been playing with 20 and 21 OOTP games. I didn't really explore all the options, but I would think we wouldn't want to have the computer determining position viability. We should be relying on the preset position rankings. I'd have to see it in action, but based on my limited understanding of it, I kind of like it. I mean, you can't turn Miguel Cabrera into a Gold Glove CF'er just by playing him there, but it sounds like you could turn a guy with only a corner OF rating into a decent CF'er if you give him enough experience there. I feel like that would happen in real life once a player gets more comfortable somewhere. The speed or arm rating won't go up, but the errors might go down. I can be persuaded either way, though. All I know about it is what I've posted here. |
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Post by LA Angels GM on Jun 2, 2022 14:59:59 GMT -5
Does anyone know if OOTP's price gets reduced at any point in the season? Like, half-off in September or something? I may want to check it out, but not at $40.
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Post by phillies17 on Jun 2, 2022 15:29:21 GMT -5
Not sure how the online version compares but I did notice a couple difference from the standalone OOTP compared to DMB:
Everyone gets a playing projection so you are not limited to the ZIPs projection pool
The game appeared to be more gamey than simulation weighed more towards offensive production and video game stat lines
I thought injuries were either more aggressive or more severe
I think playing time and fatigue is more relevant so roster building and SP/RP assignments might need to be managed differently
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Post by Cubbies on Jun 2, 2022 19:39:59 GMT -5
Does anyone know if OOTP's price gets reduced at any point in the season? Like, half-off in September or something? I may want to check it out, but not at $40. I emailed OOTP looking for a discounted version to test out and they gave me two options. 1. Epic games offers OOTP22 for $19.99 right now. I embedded a link there. 2. Around the All Star Break they offer a discount on the current year's version, so OOTP23, for half price. |
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Post by raysgm on Jun 3, 2022 14:08:40 GMT -5
Here's what I got. He also posted Frazier's player stats, but I'm on a phone so a little difficult. Give me a minute and I'll figure it how to post it here. "You’ll see what a players C/INF/OF ratings are for range, arm, error, turn DPs, and C ability then you get a cumulative number grade based on the players experience at the position. You have to give a player time at a certain position to see his overall rating increase in OOTP. You’ll see Frazier has a 35 grade at 1B right now but if I gave him every start there, it would go up to a 70-75 based on his range, error, arm and turn DP. I’m pretty sure there’s nothing like that on DMB." Ah interesting...I could go either way with this (i.e. I have no strong feelings) |
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Post by LA Angels GM on Jun 5, 2022 8:16:45 GMT -5
More:
"To add to this, DMB basically gives a player 1 D position, with 3 basic determining qualities: Range, Error Rate and Arm strength (with only 5 levels for each, from poor to excellent) that determines a players D. Within that there are some clear advantages/disadvantages (like Catcher D being not very important and OF range being extremely important/advantageous).
In OOTP, a player will have Defensive rating for any position he has typically played in the past and or will be playing in the upcoming season. So utility guys for example will get ratings at multiple positions (as this is what they do) and those ratings will differ depending on the players abilities.
But players do not get Def ratings at all positions. So if they do not have a rating in a certain position, it would be extremely unlikely that they would ever be "trained up" to an even a passable level in one season. I also think we can turn the "training up" off during the season to avoid any of these issues if we want (although leaving on IMO would not really hurt the game play).
The D qualities have a range from 1-100, providing a much broader range of abilities for each player.
The downside is that we are able to pretty much predict from the zips D projection rwhat a player's range/error will be in DMB, where it is not that straight forward in OOTP. At the end of the day, a good defensive player will still be a good defensive player in OOTP, there is just a little more nuance to the ratings.
In BNSL, we have the "training up" turned on for spring training to GMs to get their guys a little more trained up in positions they may want their players playing, but then we turn it off during the season (I believe).
On last point is that during the spring training "training up", no player exceeds their current max ability as a position, but only improve at positions where they have a rating but it's not maxed out. For example, player A has a 65 3B rating, and a 37/60 LF rating. This means that playing him at 3B in Spring training will not improve that 65, but if you played him in LF, that 37 would improve (by how much I don't know exactly, its dependent on a lot of different factors, but it would improve)."
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